Options Why Oh Why? with Andrea Silenzi: Playlist from March 12, 2014 Options

Andrea Silenzi speaks with friends, experts, guys in bars, and her own Grandma Phyllis about where love and sex meets technology.

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Options March 12, 2014: #15 - He's Not Into Any of Us

If you're a woman trying to date today, you've probably experienced this situation over and over again. This isn't a date. Let's just keep things casual. If you say the wrong thing or text too often, you might scare him away. My guest Holly Wood has been studying this phenomenon -- and it's not your fault. Her research is showing that guys under 30 in major cities aren't that hungry for relationships.

It's not that he's just not that into you. He's not into any of us.

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Artist Track Comments
    If you're a woman trying to date today, you've probably experienced this situation over and over again. This isn't a date. Let's just keep things casual. If you say the wrong thing or text too often, you might scare him away. My guest Holly Wood has been studying this phenomenon -- and it's not your fault. Her research is showing that guys under 30 in major cities aren't that hungry for relationships.

It's not that he's just not that into you. He's not into any of us.
Beex  Beat, Beat   Options  
Holly Wood    Follow her on Twitter @girlziplocked 
Small Colin  Old Sounds   Options Free Music Archive 
Avery Trufelman    Fresh college grad conducting the interview! Follow her on Twitter @Trufelman 
Holly Wood    Check out her Tumblr 
Holly Wood    "It's not par for the course to be sexually objectified on a dating site every day because you want someone to love you." - Holly Wood 
Third Coast International Audio Festival    An interview with me was recently featured in their Library Spotlight 
Randy on Twitter    FYI @RandyIsDaMan 
mr&mrsBrian  me & my cold   Options Free Music Archive 
Small Colin  Mutations   Options Free Music Archive 

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Listener comments!

Avatar 7:00pm BadGuyZero:

  7:02pm UsPostage:

Oh great, time for the worst show on WFMU
Avatar 7:03pm BadGuyZero:

There's plenty of other things to listen to in the archives.
Avatar 7:03pm stavros:

Ew Uspostage. Jerk
  7:05pm Kevlicki:

I guess you're a sports fan or you haven't listened to sportsy talk
Avatar 7:05pm stavros:

What a fucking asshole, starting off the comments section with negativity.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:06pm Ken From Hyde Park:

Is the troll from Sunday night back again?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:07pm Andrew Waterloo:

umm.. trolls and stuff.
Avatar 7:07pm Ange:

If you guys were wondering, her real name is Holly Wood. I understand this came up in Irwin's comments.
Avatar 7:08pm stavros:

With a clever name like UsPostage, they clearly only aim for the top shelf
Avatar 7:09pm Ange:

WFMU DJs have the power to ban trolls, but i never feel the need. You guys always shame them out of the playlist.
  7:10pm JakeGould:

UsPostage, shaddupayouface. Is Randy on this episode? Because if he is I need to say something.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:10pm Ken From Hyde Park:

The Simpsons just aired the show where Homer changed his name to Max Power.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:10pm Tom in PA:

Hm, I myself am also from a decaying tourist town in the Poconos
Avatar 7:11pm glenn:

hey uspostage, if you're gonna be a douche, the least you could do is not be an anonymous douche. ya douche.
  7:11pm JakeGould:

You know the cartoonist, Max Cannon? 1990s was his peak. That is his real name.
Avatar 7:12pm BadGuyZero:

I used to know someone named Guy Steele.
  7:12pm kevlicki:

I think @badguyzero had the perfect response
Avatar 7:13pm Callieflower:

Hi, I'm Max Powers' wife: Hootie McBoobs
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:13pm Skirkie:

Dude's probably gone anyway. Like a 10 yr. old ringing a doorbell and running away.
Avatar 7:15pm BadGuyZero:

That explains the flaming bag of dog poo on my porch.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:16pm Tom in PA:

Hootie McBoob, formerly Busty Sinclaire?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:17pm Ken From Hyde Park:

That reminds me, I forgot to check e-mail this afternoon for the weekly 7SD newsletter.
  7:17pm Robert:

Is criticism necessarly trolling? I really enjoy YOY, but maybe it's someone else's sincere opinion that it's the worst program on the station. Where else should they say so but here?
Avatar 7:17pm Callieflower:

Stop bringing up my maiden name!
Avatar 7:19pm Callieflower:

I'm not sure that just calling it the "worst show" counts as valid criticism. There's no comment on what they thing is wrong with it or how it could be improved. It just seems like being a jerk.
Avatar 7:19pm stavros:

@Robert Their mirror?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:19pm Skirkie:

There are plenty of programs I think are bad.

I just don't listen to them.

The program itself doesn't owe me anything. How is me trashing it on the comments lend any use at all? It's freeform.
  7:20pm JakeGould:

Robert are you having a conversation with yourself? You and UsPostage are the only non-logged in users keeping this troll junk alive.
Avatar 7:21pm stavros:

80k a year is a really high bar
Avatar 7:21pm glenn:

because just slamming something anonymously without giving a good reason for said slammage is not criticism. it's being a dick.
Avatar 7:21pm Ange:

Are there any ladies in here? Have you ever done a reverse timeline?
  7:22pm Allell:

Research? Seriously? Selectively finding limited incidents to impose your assumptions upon is neither research nor feminism. I'm very sorry but this show is terribly embarrassing.
  7:22pm kevlicki:

I'm curious hat this researcher finds with the "eternal 20 yo" that urban areas promote. Our society celebrates youth so much now I see there being a lot of people that never grow up.
Avatar 7:22pm Ange:

I'm totally open to feedback! Just not bullying. My ego isn't that fragile, it just creates a bad vibe in the chat. I'd much rather talk about the ideas we present in the episodes.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:23pm Skirkie:

A friend of mine did a reverse timeline. It didn't work out because the guys have been pretty terrible.
Avatar 7:24pm girlziplocked:

@kevlicki - do you think it's gendered in any way?
  7:24pm kevlicki:

I'm now an adult but "immature" from society's point of view since I still maintain my punk values and lifestyle. I'm in my first monogamous relationship
  7:24pm nickybones:

The idea of "adult switch" is hitting close to home. But, I did the "adult" things in my 20s, then got divorced and now in limbo in my 30s. So, I'm a catch.
  7:25pm Robert:

Who's the show embarassing TO, Allell? Sometimes you give someone rope & they hang themselves. That shouldn't embarass anyone else, though.
  7:25pm kevlicki:

Girlziplocked, I def think it's gendered
  7:25pm JakeGould:

Well, here is an idea about bearing kids past 35: I can assure you my mom did that. No issues here. Statistics & reality are 2 different things.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:25pm Skirkie:

Like listening to limited examples of said research and assuming it's the whole of it isn't all that good either.
Avatar 7:26pm Callieflower:

Yeah, I've absolutely done the reverse timeline thing, but that also extends past dating/relationships and into other personal stuff I can't talk about here
  7:26pm JakeGould:

I like watching these non-logged in pseudonyms pop-up. Such fun!
  7:26pm jeff in Puna:

it begs the question, is the interviewee speaking for her generation?
  7:27pm nickybones:

Can you log in on the app? Not sure you can.
Avatar 7:28pm stavros:

I think the interviewee is speaking for their own experience and what they've come across in their research and observations of friends
  7:29pm JakeGould:

You can’t log in via the app. But pretty much every non-logged in person here is just being critical. Someone is really on their mobile device commenting negatively about a 1 hour show they could ignore?
Avatar 7:30pm Cliff:

JakeGould, stop pulling back the curtain!
  7:30pm JakeGould:

Ange, the vibe is fine. But Randy. If he shows up in this show… Randy… That guy.
  7:31pm Allell:

@Robert -- Giving Holly Wood such an uncritical platform to validate her own uneducated, infantile and overconfident bastardization of feminist research is embarrassing to feminists, Andrea, and WFMU. More than that, it does a great disservice to the cause Holly is claiming to represent.
  7:31pm kevlicki:

I think there's plenty of variables. I dont identify with much of what's been discussed. But I didn't finish college and struggle against societal vales of "success"
Funny I was just thinking the other day that "success" to me is being able to define my schedule and make myself happy
  7:32pm Robert:

I wasn't being critical about the show (which I think is great), I was being critical about comments which were critical of other comments. Any more meta, and the thread would get llke my ol' pal Irwin's comment threads.
  7:32pm True:

But all of you logged in folks are endlessly positive and are always commenting. Some of us just comment once in a while when OUR fmu goes wrong.
  7:34pm JakeGould:

All you non-loggged in folks: What’s your favorite Judy Blume book?
  7:34pm JakeGould:

True, I am not endlessly positive. Toss Randy on the air. Watch. I’m not alone. We are legion! (Legion who has issues with Randy.)
Avatar 7:36pm stavros:

The difference between criticism is and trolling is showing itself now. UsPostage- Trolling. Allell 731 - criticism
  7:36pm Robert:

Allell, is it OK for us to listen for laughs?

If I were embarrassed every time someone else could be said to be expressing my ideas vicariously (according to others' perceptions), there'd be no end of it.
Avatar 7:36pm Ange:

If you have feedback on the show dudes, e-mail ken@wfmu.org. Let the rest of us have our geeky co-listening in peace, or else I'll ban your IP address from ever commenting again.
Avatar 7:36pm Callieflower:

There are so many FMU shows I don't care for, but I don't come into their chats and let everyone know how dissatisfied I am
  7:36pm graham:

a lot of what is being described here are symptoms......and the cause is rapacious capitalism. the attempt at a feminist perspective is laudable, but needs more marxism, i.e. a class-struggle point of view. please keep thinking and talking about this but consider how social class enters into it. and how the struggle for survival, and POWER Relations, colors the behaviors and motives of every actor in this drama.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:37pm Skirkie:

That's just because when a show comes one that I don't like I go off and do something else. And don't feel the need to complain.

Goes wrong? 24 hours of this station couldn't possibly please everyone all the time. What ends would it serve to bitch about it? If you're legit offended or something go to Ken like Andrea says.
Avatar 7:38pm LeeRosevere:

I wonder if Randy is listening to this.
  7:39pm JakeGould:

If Randy is listening to this I hope it’s in a car slowly sinking in a lake. That would be great.
Avatar 7:39pm Ange:

@Lee He still doesn't know the call numbers!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:39pm Foolbert:

If you can't be a certain sort of person and want to be with someone else, the question would seem fundamentally to be whether you'd _want_ to be with the sort of person who'd really want the sort of person you can't be. If you can't be a cookie-cutter housewife, that doesn't matter if you're not interested in the sort of partner who wants such. (You might be so interested: reality doesn't care about your happiness, and you might well strongly desire someone who won't want what you are.) (I wonder if our culture encourages wanting unobtainable love-objects so that we can assuage our empty places by buying stuff.)

When men seem reluctant to assume an adult rôle, I think one should assume that they are behaving at least partially as rational actors reacting to an extant and/or perceived incentive structure, and that structure the proper subject of your enquiry.

And as an egalitarian, I find it unlikely that women are fundamentally less unkind than men; it might well be that women are educated into being too timid to act forcefully enough to be unkind as often...but this is not being kind, as surely as naïvité isn't innocence and Oscar Pastorius shouldn't be given props for never kicking his girlfriend.
Avatar 7:40pm Callieflower:

That doesn't surprise me, after trying to watch him figure out twitter, Andrea
Avatar 7:40pm LeeRosevere:

@A of course, what am I thinking..
Avatar 7:40pm Ange:

Randy joined Twitter today guys... and I have SO MANY MISSED CALLS: twitter.com...
  7:41pm JakeGould:

Randy. That Randy.
Avatar 7:41pm stavros:

@Graham While I agree that these are symptoms of capitalism, and that gender stratification is related to class struggle, Marxism in practice has not been very kind to women historically.
Avatar 7:41pm BadGuyZero:

Even the shows I like have a song every now and then that I am just not into. I'll find something else to listen to for a couple of minutes. I would never take to the comments board and say "________, don't play any reggae ever again."

Guess what...I like to listen to/talk about stuff you couldn't give a flip about. I bet you like some things I can't stand. It's what makes us individuals. But it doesn't give you a pass to be a jerk.
Avatar 7:41pm glenn:

don't ban me, andrea. i LUUUUUUUUUUVVVVVVVVVVVVVV why oh why.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:42pm Tom in PA:

That twitter account..
Avatar 7:42pm Ange:

Everyone doesn't have to love the show! They just have to be respectful
  7:43pm Allell:

@Ange -- I'm not criticising your whole show.. I'm constructively criticising this particular episode and the interviewee. It is nothing personal. The cause Holly claims to represent is close to my heart and work as well, and as such I feel the need to comment. I do hope you can achieve better quality of discourse and guests on your show in the future. Otherwise it will just be a token "feminist" show empty of actual theory or use, causing more harm than good.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:43pm Skirkie:

Plus, you really wanna be a jerk? You can.

And we can call you out for being a jerk.

Hooray America!
Avatar 7:44pm Callieflower:

I love the list of people he's following. Andrea seems so out of place amongst that list of corporations :)
  7:44pm JakeGould:

Respect is more important than love. My first floor neighbor smells like a foot all the time. But I respect him. Because why hate?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:44pm Skirkie:

OK Cupid was terrible.

The only relationship I ended up in from that was a disaster.
  7:44pm Robert:

It's like I wrote Ken about not long ago: I used to listen to Dave Emory fairly seriously, but then recently he started to talk about people i know (and where I know the cx he draws are spurious). So I stiil llisten to him, but now I listen for laughs, and in the hope that some day he might even name me as some conspirator.
Avatar 7:44pm LeeRosevere:

I fail to see what would be wrong with a feminist show, token or otherwise.
Avatar 7:45pm Callieflower:

I'm still on OKC. I have enough friends who've found amazing men there
  7:45pm Righto:

I think it's safe to say you can like this show, but still think this particular guest's arguments and deductions are really a result of her own bellybutton lint dissection and nothing more.
Avatar 7:46pm BadGuyZero:

Poor Randy...he was the 453rd person to be denied getting numberonelover@yahoo.com.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:46pm Andrew Waterloo:

I'm on OKC, all I ever get there is dead air. I'm not sure how that reflects on me though.
  7:46pm JakeGould:

I fail to see what is wrong with a simple 1 hour show in a sea of choices. You’re on the app & complaining? You have a whole archive of about 672 hours of other shows. Just go to the archives.
Avatar 7:47pm BadGuyZero:

I'm on OKC, too. I do not match well at all with women near me. :sad trombone:
Avatar 7:48pm Callieflower:

This is such a diverse station. There's no way you're going to love ALL of the programming. It's okay for shows to not be your taste
Avatar 7:48pm glenn:

please forgive me for asking a stupid question, but there are what, 10 million people in new york city? how is it that you have to resort to a dating website to meet people? join a bowling league, or go to a bookstore or something.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:48pm Andrew Waterloo:

I constantly feel like I have to conform to a certain construct as a male to be accepted by women.
  7:49pm nickybones:

I don't think it's "resorting" to a dating site. It's just another avenue.
Avatar 7:49pm LeeRosevere:

Holly is an awesome guest Andrea - great talker and people (especially guys!) need to hear this.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:50pm Andrew Waterloo:

The main selling point of WFMU is it's indifference to whether or not you'll change the channel. When radio stations care about the fickle tastes of radio listeners you end up with a 25 song play list, and over produced station IDs
  7:50pm JakeGould:

I was on OK Cupid until I realized how destructive it was to my social life. I understand the value but there is a key problem with dating sites: Their existence is a lie. If you actually could meet people successfully on it, then the service would have no use. Like Holly Wood says: Dating is about snap judgements. And snap judgements don’t form relationships.
  7:50pm Robert:

Bowling league's for bowling, bookstore's for books, dating site's for dating, glenn.
  7:51pm kevlicki:

No one NEEDS heteronormativity!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:51pm Foolbert:

I suspect that anything a fifty-something (I am one) thinks about how Young Things comport themselves says more about the thinker's fantasy-life and unmet needs than anything else.

As for fixing your dating life: stop dating. do useful (according to your humour) stuff, be important at something. Meet someone who also thinks those things are important. Dating has always seemed designed to reïnforce the contempt the sexes are taught to hold for each other.

And I doubt you're doomed...unless you only want what is impossible...I'm thinking of the Loh/Flanagan dialogue, which at least at one point seemed to be about 'We want men to be a particular way, and damn them for not being attractive to us when they are.'...or, for that matter, the man who wants a woman who is exactly as sexually adventurous as he'd like but not a jot further, lest she be accounted a 'slut'.
Avatar 7:51pm KristinaKoffee:

Hi Andrea, this ep is amazing. I'm sending it to all my friends. :)
Avatar 7:51pm Ange:

What Holly's talking about really resonates with me and my friends -- that's the only factor I consider when I decided to air it. I fucking love the freedom I have on WFMU!
Avatar 7:51pm Callieflower:

Yeah, dating sites are just another option. It's not less than. It just is
Avatar 7:51pm stavros:

I relate more with what Holly is describing now as the adult switch more now than when they previously linked it with financial success
  7:51pm JakeGould:

Righto, can you login to WNYC’s site & comment on Brian Lehrer’s show & let him know how you feel about his topics & guests?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:53pm chris:

Good god I'm glad I'm not dating right now. This is totally depressing. I used to just *be* and I met really cool women IRL (sometimes there were long dry spells, true) and we all had a mutually wonderful time. And I got serious with one of these women. We've been together for 20 years now. I wish you all the same kind of luck and ease with the process.
  7:53pm Shparky:

Men are already scared... when you hear about the financial nightmare that is marriage and divorce... why would any rational man get involved in it?
  7:53pm JakeGould:

“I fucking love the freedom I have on WFMU!” Bingo! By the same logic, am I supposed to like everything on WNYC?
  7:53pm Robert:

That's what I love about your show, Ange: the freedom you feel. It comes thru.
Avatar 7:53pm stavros:

For real. Less men on the radio. Too many male voices
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:53pm Andrew Waterloo:

What way I feel about OK Cupid right now is that it's designed to focus on the wrong things.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:54pm Foolbert:

@Andrew\ Waterloo:
You have my sympathies...I'm lucky: quickly found someone who is at least content with me-as-I-am, particularly lucky because I am autistic enough that I find it painfully hard to be anything else, I couldn't sustain that for years without sand-papering my mind daily.
Avatar 7:55pm Ange:

If I was a WNYC reporter, I would have to wait until Holly's book is published and at Barnes and Nobles everywhere to interview her. And then I would have to find someone who disagrees with her and put that in the same interview, and pretend like my interest is balanced. That's why it's so soulless.
Avatar 7:55pm Callieflower:

Totally, stavros!
Avatar 7:55pm stavros:

@Ange You forgot to add that you would also have to become terribly boring
  7:56pm JakeGould:

Ange, people don’t realize that 90% of all interviews are product & promotion related in media nowadays. Few people just interview folks to interview folks. But Randy…
Avatar 7:57pm glenn:

well, my parents had literally hundreds of friends. they met them at dances, or euchre nights, or church dinners, or barn raisings or whatever. they went out and met people and had fun. a lot of the people that went to those events met other people and got married. sometimes the old ways are the best.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:58pm Skirkie:

What was that creepy song?
  7:58pm Righto:

JakeGould, you seem to take personally, any type of criticism towards the guest.
  7:58pm JakeGould:

I work near the WNYC studios. I have seen staff there getting “actualities” from people who are literally just walking on the same block… In Manhattan… In a media-centered/aware world… That is an “actuality” to WNYC… Get lunch, bring a recorder, record some schmoe on the same block.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:59pm Andrew Waterloo:

I've never been good at forming relationships at all.. but the old fashion way has been my approach.. it's just slow and miserable when you're single and not already surrounded by social groups.
  7:59pm P-90:

Here is a perfect example of the sort of character approaches "relationship studies" by politicizing everything she encounters: she speaks of "corsetting roles/images" for women, without acknowledging for ONE moment that it might be the women in the society who are collectively formulating these expectations.
Also, for someone who claims she's completely content with not being in a relationship, she seems very angry and militant about the whole business.
And where does she get the bizarro idea that men in their 20's are looking for sexual experiences that perhaps won't necessarily lead to long-term relationships, but not women. Really???
Avatar 7:59pm stavros:

thankyou andrea for having this show
  7:59pm JakeGould:

Righto, I think some of her ideas are not great. But I enjoy listening to other ideas… You should try it sometime. Will clear your soul’s colon.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 1:33pm Greg from Bloomfield:

"It's just pure judgement and assessment and quick, rapid rejection."
Perfectly summarizes the thoughts I've been having about online dating that I couldn't find the words for. I think she may have just inspired me to quit OKCupid. PROM KING OUT. <drops mic>
  7:15pm someone:

Holly's research is not nearly so original in conception as she seems to imagine...people have been writing academically about this kind of thing for decades (e.g. http://www.amazon.com/Educated-Romance-Achievement-College-Culture/dp/0226349446/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1394752279&sr=1-1&keywords=educated+in+romance and http://www.amazon.com/Inequalities-Love-College-Educated-Barriers-Politics/dp/0822350084/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1394752316&sr=1-2&keywords=educated+in+romance).

Still - the interview is great and the material is very interesting...but you don't have to be a Marxist to be amazed that even when the show brings in a trainee sociologist, it happens to be a sociologist who seemingly cannot talk about class. So we hear about how guys make the adult switch when they 'earn 80k', as if this is just normal, this is just what 'guys' are like...but 80k is almost double the average salary in the US...so clearly these are not just 'guys', but guys belonging to the upper 1/3 economic group in the country, at least. Once again, the show is really only and exclusively about the experiences of people belonging to an economic elite, and it doesn't seem able even to admit that fact to itself. Why is this relevant? It's relevant because, as Graham hints, the norms of behaviour amongst 'guys' which are being described, are NOT universal male norms even amongst people in their 20s in the US today. Rather, they are norms shared by a small cohort who are in training to become the corporate / media elite of the US. Their individualistic culture, their self-indulgent hedonism and their inability to form relationships are a necessary part of their training to become, if not members of the 1% themselves, at least their loyal and well-rewarded lieutenants. Okay, so women who belong to the same social group are apparently experiencing things and behaving differently. That's really interesting and it would be great to know why that is. But that question couldn't be answered without some reference to the much bigger social context within which even those women are themselves part of a tiny and incredibly powerful elite whose norms and culture are inevitably shaped by that status. I understand that ultimately the show is not trying to give some comprehensive account of contemporary gendered experience. I get that it is basically just about Ange and her friends. But I really think that Ange and her friends will never understand their own situation and the things which affect it unless they can face up to the fact that they are not just 'women', but are women who belong to an incredibly privileged caste, whose role in the wider social order affects the way that they, and the men with whom the associate, behave, feel, and see the world. Ange says her favourite TV show is 'Girls'...but the thing about Girls is that that show kind of knows all this...it knows that the women whose lives it describes are unbelievably privileged and it invites us, frankly, to despise their self-interested social parochialism even while it considers its nature and causes (that's why the show is actually mostly about their jobs, even though it lures in viewers by pretending to be about their sex lives). The trouble with WoW is that it isn't really managing to be 'Girls' - it's still more like Sex and the City...a story about the sex lives and heartbreaks of the NYC cultural elite...it keeps coming so very close to being something more than that, but every time it gets there, it turns away (I mean my god you have a SOCIOLOGIST) and all she can say about the fact that her subjects live in the most expensive cities in the world is that this 'leads to problems paying the rent' - COME ON...before you start even talking about that, you should talk about the fact that just BEING IN THOSE CITIES AT ALL, without having been born into one of their isolated working class districts, pretty much qualifies these people as upper middle class...). Okay enough. I love this show - I just wish it could get beyond its limitations.

Maybe that's expecting too much.
  7:16pm someone:

also http://www.amazon.com/Aftermath-Feminism-Culture-Representation-Identity/dp/0761970622/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1394752501&sr=1-1&keywords=the+aftermath+of+feminism+gender+culture+and+social+change
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