Favoriting Techtonic with Mark Hurst: Playlist from October 11, 2021 Favoriting

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Conversations with creators and thinkers who are charting the way forward in a tech-saturated society. Tech, community, video games, and whatever else is next.

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Favoriting October 11, 2021: David Bodanis, author, "The Art of Fairness"

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<em><a href="https://www.indiebound.org/book/9781419756351" target="_blank">The Art of Fairness</a></em>, by David Bodanis
The Art of Fairness, by David Bodanis
Favoriting
The Art of Fairness, by David Bodanis

Today: David Bodanis, author of The Art of Fairness: The Power of Decency in a World Turned Mean.

Bio (via publisher site): David Bodanis was born in Chicago, lived in France for a decade, and makes his home in London. He studied math, physics, and history at the University of Chicago, and for many years, taught the “Intellectual Toolkit” course at Oxford. His books include the New York Times bestselling The Secret House, the bestselling E=mc², which was adapted into the PBS documentary Einstein’s Big Idea, and the Royal Society Science Book of the Year Prize winner Electric Universe.

Links:

DavidBodanis.com

SpaceX’s Satellite Megaconstellations Are Astrocolonialism, Indigenous Advocates Say (Vice, Oct 5, 2021): " Satellite companies such as SpaceX and Amazon aim to provide global broadband, but their networks threaten dark skies and Indigenous traditions that depend on them. ... Earth orbit may contain 100,000 operational satellites by 2030."

• Even when you turn the iPhone "off," Apple's Find My feature can still locate the phone. This means there's no such thing as "off" for smartphones. As this post reminds us, "A smartphone is a human tracking device, no matter what."

On Facebook as Big Tobacco

• Roger McNamee (past Techtonic guest) posts: "Analogizing FB to tobacco or alcohol trivializes the damage FB does. Tobacco and alcohol did not undermine democracy, enable an insurrection, or extend a pandemic, much less all 3 in one year."

• Jason Kint posts:"I wish in the constant analogy of Facebook to big tobacco, people would point out that tobacco causes cancer - which, last I checked, isn’t contagious. The second hand-effects of Facebook are a lot more dangerous than second-hand smoke and cigarettes never threatened democracy."

• Sandeep Vaheesan posts: "Ban surveillance advertising and force firms to make money through contextual ads and subscription fees (newspaper model); split Facebook into multiple rivals; mandate interoperability across networks." (I add: "Break up the company; Ban algorithmic amplification; Put Zuck & Sheryl on trial for criminal behavior.")

• My response to Derek Thompson positing Facebook as “alcohol” - I posted, “could we say that ‘alcohol’ drove the rioters into the Capitol on Jan 6? or the rise of hate groups? no. this is something far worse.”

• My own comments: Facebook’s laughable response to the whistleblower (Oct 7, 2021)

Finally, from Canadian cartoonist Bruce MacKinnon, "How Facebook turns a profit":



• Outtro tonight from Honky Tonk Radio Girl with Becky, from September 15, 2021. Listen to Becky's show every Wednesday from 8pm to 9pm Eastern.

PAST EPISODES: techtonic.fm lists recent Techtonic shows.

PODCAST: Subscribe to the Techtonic podcast

Artist Track Images Approx. start time
  Do nice guys always finish last? David Bodanis discusses his new book, "The Art of Fairness."
Tomaš Dvořák  Game Boy Tune   Favoriting
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  Mark's intro  
Favoriting
 
  Interview with David Bodanis  
Favoriting
0:11:30 (Pop-up)
  Mark's comments  
Favoriting
0:50:02 (Pop-up)
Jim Nesbitt  Nice Guys Always Finish Last   Favoriting
Favoriting
0:56:04 (Pop-up)


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Listener comments!

Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:00pm
ultradamno:

Mark! Techtonteous!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:00pm
Handy Haversack:

Mark and all the Techyon Drives! The Techgin is Techrye, but I could still really use a generous measure of Techtonic.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:01pm
Yes:

hallo
Avatar 6:01pm
HyperDose:

Strapped in and ready to learn!
  6:01pm
listener james from westwood:

Evening, Mark and all!
  6:02pm
David in London:

Hello groovers. Evening Mark and all Technoids.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:02pm
Webhamster Henry:

Greetings, people of Tech!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:02pm
Little Danny:

praying for Amazon to go down right now
Avatar 6:03pm
Revolution Rabbit Nov63:

No Amazon would inconvenience me less...
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:03pm
Webhamster Henry:

Ken even remixed your Fb rant...
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:03pm
Handy Haversack:

Hey, ultradamno, Yes, HyperDose, James, David, Webhamster, Little Danny.

HyperDose is learning on his own! Let's get him!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:03pm
ultradamno:

In fairness, I don't think a pigeon has ever been truthful with me, exactly
  6:03pm
ShelbyG:

That was a FANTASTIC show!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:03pm
ultradamno:

Hiya Handy!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:03pm
tim from washington:

Hey Mark and crew! I survived the Blackout of '21!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:04pm
Franco Twinkie:

We loved it Mark!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:04pm
Handy Haversack:

ultradamno: Sir! You are talking! to a Pigeon!

(My softball team since 2001!)
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:04pm
joe mulligan:

last week was amazing and I love how Ken called it your Network moment!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:04pm
Little Danny:

yeah you were so great last week Mark
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:05pm
dale:

happy international indigenous italian american day of the girl.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:05pm
ultradamno:

If it makes you feel better, parrots are the real problem. They'll spit back out any misinformation you tell them.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:05pm
Bas NL:

Hi Mark! Techsavvies!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:05pm
dale:

....and mattress sale day.
  6:05pm
ShelbyG:

I like the idea of live call-ins. Not every week.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:05pm
joe mulligan:

felt like we were experiencing part of history in real time all together
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:05pm
Webhamster Henry:

In general, you need interview-less shows about once a month just to clear the decks.
  6:06pm
wendy del formaggio:

I listened to last week’s show on the archives. It was AWESOME, especially the Beale-esque rant. YAY MARK! We’re so lucky to have Techtonic. ❤️
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:06pm
Handy Haversack:

I think hearing from the listeners from time to time would be a wonderful feature. There are some passionate people. And I want to hear the apologists and defenders so that we can get righteous on 'em!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:06pm
tim from washington:

I appreciate diverse opinions so I having call-in shows now and then sounds great.
  6:07pm
queems:

pledge to wfmu for more unhinged tech rants!!!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:07pm
Handy Haversack:

queems: this is why I pledge.
  6:07pm
ShelbyG:

joe mulligan: it felt like that for me, too!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:08pm
Ken From Hyde Park:

Hey, Mark. Flog those tech scoundrels!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:08pm
Franco Twinkie:

You think you can rant!? Just you wait.
  6:08pm
Marci:

Brilliant show last week !
Avatar 6:09pm
HyperDose:

@Little Danny As of today, I have no pending amazon deliveries. So hack it up, friend!
@Handy Yes, I have become sentient. Also...hey to you and K8! =]
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:10pm
ultradamno:

Giulani can boast a similar stand on cousins as Einstein...that's probably where the similarities end.
Avatar 6:10pm
Revolution Rabbit Nov63:

'If it's not a Happy Ending
- it's not the ending yet.'
- Lennon
  6:11pm
ShelbyG:

I love this show. Such great, interesting topics.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:11pm
Bas NL:

Zuck is a material boy.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:11pm
Handy Haversack:

All grunting here, HyperDose.

frinkiac.com...

OK, there is some real yelling going on over here. Time to feed the monsters.
  6:11pm
DanFA:

Did anyone watch the Haugen testimony in full?
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:11pm
chris in the redwoods:

meeting over quickly and painlessly, so i can tune in this week!
hello, Mark and constantly surveilled ones.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:12pm
Webhamster Henry:

it's the old G.W. Bush "I'd drink a beer with him..."
  6:13pm
ShelbyG:

Webmaster: totally.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:13pm
Passaic River Blues:

First time listening and I'm locked in.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:13pm
tim from washington:

Or nice guys in they give money to the right political party.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:13pm
Webhamster Henry:

“You're so nice. You're not good, you're not bad, You're just nice. I'm not good, I'm not nice, I'm just right. I'm the witch. You're the world.”
-- The Witch, Into The Woods
Avatar 6:14pm
Revolution Rabbit Nov63:

Hitler loved his dogs.
Like - million$ in philanthropy are Corporate PR for not paying billion$ in taxes & destroying competition.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:15pm
Mark Hurst:

Hi all! thanks for joining tonight!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:15pm
ultradamno:

How high is most people's bar when it come to who they'll drink a beer with? Especially once I'm a couple of drinks in, all bets are off.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:15pm
Mark Hurst:

@Wendy thanks so much :)
Avatar 6:16pm
Doug in JC:

When I was maybe 13 I defended someone by saying they were nice. My friend's dad told me that nice was meaningless, and that the important things to look for were intelligence, sensitivity, and compassion. I've never forgotten it.
Avatar 6:16pm
annie:

i HAVE to say this about the new "Proper-Speech" pattern: please stop interrupting sentences to correct the words you feel will be "offensive" or "wrong." criminy, just flicking speak your sentences, stop worrying if the words you're using are going to offend someone. this, in itself, is the toxicity of today's culture.
Avatar 6:17pm
Revolution Rabbit Nov63:

Cory Doctorow illustrates : If you put up a Billboard on a thoroughfare - & it's misinformation, damaging & hateful - everyone can see everyone else seeing it in public space - & know someone paid for it. Online - all those qualifiers for public space are removed...
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:17pm
Passaic River Blues:

OT: Starrett City, the massive BK housing development, was sold by the Trump Org. two years ago.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:17pm
tim from washington:

Damn right being cautious around New Yorkers. They're all wallet inspectors. The whole lot of them!
Avatar 6:19pm
Wild Neil||Peace All:

Michelangelo used to feed his crews catered lunches so they would stick around the worksite.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:20pm
Webhamster Henry:

There was a rail line directly from the steel mill in Pennsylvania to the ESB site.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:21pm
Passaic River Blues:

Trust but verify.
  6:22pm
ShelbyG:

“Bill Gates is a nice guy”. Yikes. Donating money/resources without accountability to who’s getting the $$? Not necessarily the “nice guys”.
Avatar 6:22pm
Doug in JC:

@Webmaster under the Hudson or via Albany?
  6:22pm
ShelbyG:

I’m a Runze from Nebraska. I am a proud Midwesterner.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:22pm
Webhamster Henry:

Fun fact: The Waldorf Astoria on the ESB site had a Rosendale Cement foundation - which is REALLY HARD.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:23pm
tim from washington:

This is the interview originally scheduled for last week?
  6:23pm
Sam:

I always thought it was trump who coined Nice guys finish last
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:23pm
Handy Haversack:

Up the Runzas!

Doug: or train to NJ, train ferry, then train in Manhattan?
  6:23pm
ShelbyG:

*RUNZA*
  6:23pm
Sam:

Now it’s the Walled-off Astoria
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:24pm
Mark Hurst:

@Tim yes
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:25pm
LCBD:

Mark, I’ve been meaning to write to you since last week. Thank you for an excellent show. I quit Instagram!
  6:25pm
Tom from Stirling.:

that 3B on Cubs was Ron Santo
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:25pm
Mark Hurst:

@LCBD great to hear! congrats!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:26pm
ultradamno:

Reminds me of Bobby Knight and his shit (which he once showed off to his players)
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:26pm
Handy Haversack:

I don't think there were games that those players didn't do their best to win -- you can't try harder than your hardest just because you don't like the Cubs' manager.

Way to go, LCBD!
  6:27pm
Sam:

Colorfast, natural selection can sometimes favor jerks, especially in the short run. But overall the societies that cooperate are the ones that thrive long term.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:27pm
Passaic River Blues:

@LCBD: nice!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:28pm
LCBD:

Thanks Mark,Handy, and Passaic River Blues!

My best friend growing up took piano lessons from Leo’s mom (south side of Chicago.)
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:29pm
Mark Hurst:

@LCBD that is so cool! i hope Leo's mom was nicer than her son is reported to have been...
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:30pm
Mark Hurst:

Please let's not dive into vaccine issues tonight - that's off-topic for today's show.
  6:31pm
Sam:

We’re still in the midst of evolving morally. Give us a couple more million years and everyone will be a good person with no evil desires. Like on Star Trek kind of, but even better.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:31pm
Mark Hurst:

I covered the vaccine + tech recently on the Aug 9 show. For the record, I am pro-vaccine and against the unnecessary surveillance from vaccine apps: www.wfmu.org...

Let's just leave it there. Thanks
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:32pm
Handy Haversack:

Nazis. I hate these guys.
  6:32pm
Carmichael:

Dude, enough.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:32pm
Mark Hurst:

I'm going to censor way off-topic chat because that drags down our discourse here. Thanks.
  6:32pm
Carmichael:

I hate Illinois Nazis.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:33pm
ultradamno:

One way Trump isn't like Hitler or Goebbels, he never really failed at art.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:33pm
Ken From Hyde Park:

Be Nice to Trolls Week was in July or something.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:34pm
Handy Haversack:

You could argue that reality TV *is* the failure of art, ultradamno.
  6:34pm
Sam:

It’s better to be loved than to be feared
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:34pm
ultradamno:

But he succeeded at that failure
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:35pm
B R M:

Highly recommend reading the two volume biography of Hitler by Volker Ullrich as well... incredibly illuminating books that examine this blueprint. Volume I in particular is about the political rise of the NSDAP.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:35pm
Webhamster Henry:

@Doug in JC here's read on the innovative construction of the ESB!:constructioncompany.com...
Avatar 6:36pm
Doug in JC:

@Webmaster Thank you! I love this stuff
Avatar 6:37pm
Revolution Rabbit Nov63:

Yup. WWII followed the Depression.
Then, the USA chose FDR, & Germany chose Hitler.
After the Great Recession - this time the USA went w/ Drumpf.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:38pm
Handy Haversack:

DFW uses that anecdote.
  6:38pm
Sam:

You can always justify your own evil acts by framing them as the only effective way to oppose some far greater evil. That’s usually how it works.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:39pm
listener james from westwood:

B R M: Seconding the Ullrich books! Also Longerich's Goebbels biography.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:39pm
Mark Hurst:

@Sam good point. "But it was for the greater good, I promise..."
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:39pm
LCBD:

I forgot to say that Peter’s call from FL last week really got to me! Thanks Peter!
Avatar 6:39pm
Revolution Rabbit Nov63:

...actually, the USA didn't go with Drumpf - in terms of the Popular Vote ...too bad we're not a Democracy.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:41pm
Mark Hurst:

"The Song Of The Dodo: Island Biogeography In An Age Of Extinctions," by David Quammen - www.indiebound.org...
Avatar 6:42pm
Revolution Rabbit Nov63:

Always been concerned with how people slip between the cracks in our Society - like all the young shooters.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:43pm
Passaic River Blues:

@Mark Hurst: that book and all of Quammen's books are fantastic. The analysis of endemic biodiversity, its beauty and fragility, was utterly fascinating. Great recommendation.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:44pm
Mark Hurst:

@Passaic thanks! There's a lot of resonance with the evolution of tech, too... Facebook/Google are building a monoculture, which Quammen rightly warns against.
Avatar 6:44pm
Revolution Rabbit Nov63:

Frog in slowly boiling water - slow enuff & it stays & dies.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:46pm
Handy Haversack:

I confess I do get worried when the answer seems to be "if capitalism could just behave better." It is contrary to its telos to do so.

I guess that's a hesitation I have here -- not about the overarching thesis but about the evidence -- anecdotal evidence and case studies are easiest to refute (look up Asimov and sexual harassment, for example). In the book, is there more connective tissue among the case studies, Mark?
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:46pm
tim from washington:

I appreciate David's empathy. It's refreshing to hear.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:47pm
Mark Hurst:

@Handy I'd say that there's more focus on lessons & takeaways & patterns than I'm getting to in the interview - here I'm focusing more on the stories.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:47pm
Webhamster Henry:

"Vunce rockets go up, who cares where zey come down? Dat's not my department!" says Werner von Braun. -- Prof. Tom Lehrer
Avatar 6:47pm
Revolution Rabbit Nov63:

Don't forget the simpatico between Futurism & Fascism. Frankenstein's square head is a Bauhaus design...
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:48pm
Handy Haversack:

Understood, Mark, and thanks! Not criticizing at all, just wondering.
Avatar 6:48pm
Revolution Rabbit Nov63:

Ford was Fascist...
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:48pm
Handy Haversack:

*And* Bela Lugosi's dead!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:48pm
Mark Hurst:

@Handy all good!
  6:49pm
Sam:

Maybe the government should take over social media sites and make them non-profit utilities with no advertising or profit motive.
Avatar 6:49pm
Revolution Rabbit Nov63:

Dracula is Magick. The counterpart.
  6:50pm
Marie:

Hey Mark, I would love it if you would devote a show to covering scholars' proposals for regulating Facebook and other social media. Here's a link to an interview on PBS Newshour with someone from a Harvard think tank on just that:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/twitter-fb-have-deplatformed-trump-is-it-enough
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:50pm
Passaic River Blues:

@Handy: I hear that, absolutely. I think such reforms only have any heft if supported or directed by state interventions (as Hurst is now discussing, via taxation, public funding/incentives, anti-trust, and beefed up regulatory oversight). Self-directed "corporate citizen" stuff is bullshit window-dressing.
Avatar 6:52pm
Revolution Rabbit Nov63:

Just like Biological / Climate Environmentalism. Without addressing the Corporations' impact - it's not going to work.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:52pm
B R M:

Enjoyed that conversation
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:53pm
Bas NL:

If only consumers would transmute to thinking users...
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:54pm
Handy Haversack:

Enjoyed it, too! My hesitations are on record. PRB, I'm not sure that *this* form of government is really capable of ever imposing those things. I'd like to think it possible ... but even at social-safety-net-iest, we still privileged business and wealth over the commonweal. So ... well, just not very sanguine about the possibilities.

The Mondragon style might be a model to follow -- and demand legally that all businesses follow.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:54pm
tim from washington:

Thanks, Mark! This was a great listen.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:54pm
Webhamster Henry:

@Sam - I've had a similar idea , which is that the actual social graph would be owned and access to it allowed kind of like HIPAA information, and third parties would have to license it and abide by those privacy rules.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:54pm
Ken From Hyde Park:

Great show tonight, Mark. Nicely done!
  6:54pm
Skillet:

“If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together”
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:55pm
full_english_breakfast:

Good interview!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:55pm
Bas NL:

Thanks Mark! Thanks David!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:56pm
Richy4619:

TY Mark + David + WFMU
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:56pm
DjLorraine:

Thank you
Avatar 6:57pm
annie:

i have to listen to last week's show.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:57pm
Little Danny:

thank you Mark (and David)!
Avatar 6:57pm
Stillwell Coney Islander:

Thanks Mark & David!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:57pm
Passaic River Blues:

@Handy: totally, totally with you. What I outlined requires a massive political realignment/reformation.

Thank you, Mark!
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:57pm
Handy Haversack:

Thanks, Mark! Thanks, David! A principled stand -- imagine the wonder of it all! This show really provides excellent models when tough choices come up -- personally, professionally. Just remembering to know that ethics are involved in choices that for so many people are merely routine.

Anyway, thanks for this!

Later on, Techyon Drives!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:57pm
listener 126464:

Thanks Mark, thanks David.
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:57pm
Handy Haversack:

(And thanks, Becky!)
Avatar 6:58pm
Revolution Rabbit Nov63:

TY
  6:58pm
Sam:

Godspeed Captain Shatner!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:59pm
coelacanth∅:

Thanks Mark
Avatar 🤖 Swag For Life Member 6:59pm
ultradamno:

Those snobby pricks at the general store.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:59pm
coelacanth∅:

...Thanks David Bodanis
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:00pm
Mark Hurst:

Thanks, everyone! Good discussion this evening.
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