Options Techtonic with Mark Hurst: Playlist from December 14, 2020 Options

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Mon. Apr 19th, 6pm - 7pm: Bob Ostertag, musician and author, "Facebooking the Anthropocene in Raja Ampat" (More info...)

Options December 14, 2020: J. Khadijah Abdurahman on Timnit Gebru's firing and "the moral collapse" of AI ethics

Listen to this show: MP3 - 128K |  Pop‑up player!

Pointing to this New York Times article (Dec 9, 2020)
Options
Pointing to this New York Times article (Dec 9, 2020)

Tonight: J. Khadijah Abdurahman on Timnit Gebru's firing and "the moral collapse" of AI ethics

Links:

On the Moral Collapse of AI Ethics, by Khadijah (Dec 7, 2020)

• Khadijah on Twitter: @upfromthecracks

We Be Imagining, made possible by Columbia's The American Assembly and the INCITE project

We Be Imagining podcast, hosted by Khadijah

We read the paper that forced Timnit Gebru out of Google. Here's what it says (by Karen Hao in Technology Review, Dec 4, 2020)

Wikipedia on Dr. Timnit Gebru: "Gebru co-authored a paper on the risks of very large language models, regarding their environmental and financial costs, inscrutability leading to unknown dangerous biases, inability of the models to understand the concepts underlying what they learn, and the potential for using them to deceive people."

Interview with Khadijah on Our Data Bodies (May 2020): "The biggest blind spot in the conversation about algorithms and automated decision making is that often the algorithms are compared to human decision making."

U.S. and States Say Facebook Illegally Crushed Competition (NYT, Dec 9). See also Matt Stoller, in The End of the Facebook Crime Spree (Dec 9): "What Mark Zuckerberg did at Facebook is engage in systemic criminal behavior, and he was able to do so because law enforcers refused to enforce the law against the powerful. That era is over." (Here's my own comment.)

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PAST EPISODES: techtonic.fm lists recent Techtonic interviews and Little Slice of Tech Pie segments.

PODCAST: Subscribe to the Techtonic podcast

Artist Track Album Images Approx. start time
  J. Khadijah Abdurahman on Timnit Gebru's firing and "the moral collapse" of AI ethics
Tomaš Dvořák  Game Boy Tune   Options Machinarium Soundtrack 
Options
 
  Mark's intro    
Options
 
  Interview with J. Khadijah Abdurahman    
Options
0:14:25 (MP3 | Pop‑up)
Hachalu Hundessa  Maalan Jira   Options  
Options
0:46:40 (MP3 | Pop‑up)
  Mark's comments    
Options
0:47:29 (MP3 | Pop‑up)
Meme  Hamster Dance   Options     0:55:43 (MP3 | Pop‑up)


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Listener comments!

Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:00pm ultradamno:

Mark! Techccinees!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:00pm Handy Haversack:

Mark and the Techyons!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:01pm listener james from westwood:

Hi ho, Mark and all!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:01pm DjLorraine:

Techyon, plus +1 tickets please and thank you
Avatar 6:01pm Bas NL:

Hi Mark! Human Intelligentees!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:02pm Webhamster Henry:

I suggest Facebook be split into "Fac" "Ebo and "Ok".
  6:02pm ?:

Mark, what do you know/think about Roblox?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:02pm Webhamster Henry:

And Google be split into "Go" "Ogle".
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:03pm tim from champaign (now washington):

Hey Mark and folks!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:04pm PaulRobeson1920:

Hello peop le
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:05pm melinda:

hi everyone
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:05pm ultradamno:

Did these Google Home people never watch Mr. Robot?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:06pm Webhamster Henry:

There was a hiccup in Amazon Web Services too sometime this month - lots lots lots of web sites and apps use AWS.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:07pm DjLorraine:

📚📖📙 Hi Tim from C
Avatar 6:08pm northguineahills:

Am I out of the loop? Have we covered how Goo-Tube controls monetized advertisements if the deem the content obscene. (I'm specifically referencing history podcasts that would show dead bodies in war or in lynching and pogroms.) (they should censor BS that is still propagated on Goo-Tube).
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:11pm Handy Haversack:

Another reminder that "the cloud" is just "someone else's computer."
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:14pm Handy Haversack:

I was annoyed that I was the only one of my coworkers awake and trying to work early enough the note that our systems were all taken our by being now imbricate with Go and Ogle.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:14pm Megaroni:

Amazing that you’re uplifting this woman’s story! Thank you Techtonic
Avatar 6:14pm Bergey:

Hello all, love when I tune in and get thrust into a random story like this
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:14pm listener 126464:

Avoid the Smart Cannabis Dispenser.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:17pm Mark Hurst:

Hi Tim, Webham, Bas, Lorraine, James, Handy, ultra, Paul, melinda, ngh, Megaroni, Bergey, and listener126! Thanks for joining in.
Avatar 6:18pm northguineahills:

I might have lost a few job interviews by suggesting not using the cloud.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:23pm tim from champaign (now washington):

J. is saying "Blackened A.I."?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:24pm Mark Hurst:

"Black in AI"
Avatar 6:25pm Bergey:

ah that makes more sense
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:26pm tim from champaign (now washington):

Thanks!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:27pm ultradamno:

How it started/how it's going
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:27pm ultradamno:

It's pretty annoying
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:28pm tim from champaign (now washington):

I'm really suspect of that book.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:29pm melinda:

@tim me too
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:30pm Stillwell Coney Islander:

Good evening Mark. Welcome Khadijah, thank you for enlightening us on AI ethics decline
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:31pm Mark Hurst:

@Stillwell welcome! Glad you're enjoying the interview.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:32pm ultradamno:

Well, at least Pornhub has faced repercussions for questionable content. That's not a low hanging fruit situation at all.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:32pm tim from champaign (now washington):

re: White Fragility - anytime there's information presented in a way that doesn't allow for discussion and it's based on racial/cultural generalizations, I'm out.
Avatar 6:34pm Bergey:

I've always felt that A.I. will take over many white collar "thinking" jobs and thus its impact is less racially focused. Automation seems like the exact opposite. I always wonder why companies like Boston Dynamics don't get more flac for it.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:34pm ♪Kɛ:

Yes, for those not familiar with Robin DiAngelo, she is, as far as I can tell, a con artist who has hijacked anti-racism to charge companies thousands of dollars for her garbage version of diversity training.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:34pm DjLorraine:

Wow
Avatar 6:35pm Bergey:

mechanical automation i mean
  6:36pm Dean:

Apropos of the discussion of DiAngelo: https://www.city-journal.org/how-to-be-an-antiracist
Avatar 6:37pm northguineahills:

Besides the Oromo, there is also the Tigray rebelling in Ethiopia. Eretria got independence, but we see how well that went for the Eritreans (one of the most repressive regimes in Africa).
  6:43pm P-90:

“There’s so many reasons why I/we should be dead but I/we aren’t” is her best argument for optimism?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:43pm Handy Haversack:

Cheering for Khadijah breaks out in this apartment!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:44pm tim from champaign (now washington):

Great interview, Khadijah and Mark!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:46pm ♪Kɛ:

@Dean, nah, not that either. That misleadingly respectable-looking "City Journal" comes from the conservative Manhattan Institute for Policy Research. Also it's hilarious to me that now that anti-intellectualism has completely taken over the Republican party, all those William F. Buckley types would be the second or third ones in front of the firing squad in any New Confederacy (heaven forbid).

Anyway, Khadijah seems awesome.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:47pm melinda:

This really highlights the weakness of the emphasis on representation over effects on people's lives. Great interview.
  6:48pm Dean:

With respect to Right to Be Forgotten, there has been some discussion. Similarly, the discussion often misses the point, which in my view is technical, namely, the development of automated tools that can in fact approximate norms of relevance. Google fails miserably in this regard.

@Ike: Regardless, the criticism of Kendi's book is good.
  6:49pm Dean:

I fear anti-intellectualism enjoys bipartisan support.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:49pm melinda:

@Dean I thought the article was a fair criticism, Kendi's not much better than DiAngelo from what I can tell.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:50pm PaulRobeson1920:

“What happens to one directly, affects all indirectly” If you can read (and know you can) read the “Letter from the Birmingham jail” April 1963... Like it was written yesterday
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:50pm DjLorraine:

Transpacific Sound Paradise rob?
Avatar 6:50pm northguineahills:

@P-90, sounds like optimism to me (I might hold a low bar lately for that).

@Ike: I disagree w/ Buckley 100%, but at least he can defend his beliefs w/ erudite debates. I miss when that was possible.
  6:50pm Dean:

Agreed, @melinda. Every other page there's an ipse dixit.
  6:51pm P-90:

“Party”? Say what?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:51pm tim from champaign (now washington):

Impromptu party!!!
Avatar 6:51pm Bas NL:

Ohww YEAH! Partyhardy!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:52pm melinda:

@ngh not to go too off topic but have you seen The Best Of Enemies, the doc about Buckley's feud with Gore Vidal? Worth watching.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:52pm Webhamster Henry:

Break-up dancing!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:52pm listener 126464:

Who got married?
  6:52pm P-90:

FB’s been asking for it, it was inevitable.
  6:52pm anders:

by jove's beard, mark hurst is getting funky!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:52pm tim from champaign (now washington):

Patti Smith's song "Break It Up" was 45 years ahead of it's time!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:52pm PaulRobeson1920:

(*I know you can)

I have to see you again and again
Take me, Spanish caravan
Yes, I know you can
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:53pm ultradamno:

This is starting to feel like a John Oliver "WE GOT HIM" bait and switch
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:53pm Handy Haversack:

CELEBRATE!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:53pm melinda:

I like Matt Stoller
  6:53pm Dean:

Wish I could find the marvelous interview with ACLU's Ira Glasser about his relationship with Buckley...
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:53pm Carmichael:

@melinda, that was an epic feud. Worse than Pat Metheny vs Kenny G.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:53pm DjLorraine:

AG Barr stepped down. I hope Jim Jordan or Cipolone doesn't replace him
Avatar 6:53pm northguineahills:

will look for it, melinda!

The EU also is attempting the same.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:53pm tim from champaign (now washington):

THIS IS THE BEST PARTY!!!!!!!!!!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:53pm Handy Haversack:

Wine and happiness!
  6:54pm Niki A:

First time listening. love the show, Mark
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:54pm melinda:

@Dean he talked a bit about that in an interview I heard, it might have been the one with Reason mag.
Avatar 6:54pm neeelz:

Bout time!
Amazing news
  6:54pm Dean:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGI4fc_VB7c&feature=emb_logo

Trigger warning: Glenn Greenwald is the interviewer. I think he's top-notch, but so many people, for reasons I can't entirely fathom, don't like him.
Avatar 6:54pm northguineahills:

doing my best charlie brown dance!
  6:54pm space_cadet:

Only just started listening to the show regularly - thanks so much for all the excellent discussion you provide!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:54pm Webhamster Henry:

<dancing emoji>
  6:54pm P-90:

Maybe different music for the next party, Mark...?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:54pm Megaroni:

I am outside dancing! Yes Techtonic! Great news
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:54pm Handy Haversack:

Love, music, wine, and revolution!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:55pm Carmichael:

Hunter Thompson wrote some articles where he delves into his friendship with Patrick Buchanon.
  6:55pm Bea:

Want to see video of you rocking out, Mark!!
  6:55pm Dean:

Is this the only antitrust party in town?! Hey, wait a minute!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:55pm DjLorraine:

Woot
Avatar 6:55pm herb.nyc:

That was a fun Andy Trust party!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:55pm melinda:

I like your additions Mark...break em up break em up haha
  6:55pm Dean:

There are companies to sue!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:55pm tim from champaign (now washington):

Time to break up the holiday party, folks.Techtonic has a monopoly on good times!
Avatar 6:55pm Bergey:

I once set up a stage at a gala for Diana Ross and this song was played for hours over and over by the sound check people. and now it drives me crazy
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:56pm Carmichael:

And to top it off, Biden formally passed the electoral college!
  6:56pm Sam:

BREAK THEM UP!!!
BREAK THEM UP!!!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:56pm ♪Kɛ:

Didn't Greenwald just come out as a tankie? Or did I misunderstand something he said about China?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:56pm PaulRobeson1920:

Hahaha Good Stuff Mark! Thanks Skeltons! Peace and love ya’ll!
Allright! Ken the King Snake!
Avatar 6:56pm Bas NL:

Thanks Mark! Thanks Khadijah! WFMU crew!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:57pm melinda:

thanks Mark!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:57pm Handy Haversack:

Thanks, Mark! Thanks, Khadijah!

Be well, Techyon Drives. Keep reaching for the stars!
  6:57pm Sam:

Facebook = Faceplant
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:57pm Scott Williams:

Hahaaa, nice exit Mark! Enjoy your time off!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:57pm Stillwell Coney Islander:

CHEERS!
Avatar 6:57pm northguineahills:

I think the one reason people dislike Grenwald, is that he's a dick personally/ He also has done some things in print that stretched the truth and did a "you're not helping" (otherwise, I like him).

I read that Carmichael!

Thanks Mark!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:57pm Mark Hurst:

Thanks, everyone! Going out on a positive note! See you in two weeks!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:57pm Webhamster Henry:

Have a great time off!
Also: I am not one of these hamsters.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:57pm paddy in matawan:

woowoo
  6:57pm Dean:

I had to look up "tankie." News to me. His agenda has been pretty clear for ages.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:57pm adampsyche:

thanks for the hamster dance!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:58pm Mark Hurst:

@Scott thanks, my friend!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:58pm Stillwell Coney Islander:

Thank you Mark !
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:58pm Carmichael:

This is my jam.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:58pm melinda:

@Scott he knows how to exit in style
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:58pm paddy in matawan:

Early memes rule. New memes are soooooo dumb.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:58pm Bootsie:

Whyyyyyy can't I clicky star "Hamster Dance"??
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:58pm tim from champaign (now washington):

THanks, Mark! Party hard!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:58pm Carmichael:

Where's the dancing baby?!?
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:58pm melinda:

@ngh I think you are right
  6:58pm Dean:

I hear you, @ngh, except I've never regarded (most of) his behavior as dick-ish. Compare, say, most mainstream media commentators. They're incessant dicks.
Avatar 6:58pm Honeybear:

One of my favorite HST moment was the one where he relates how he bonded with Nixon over football during a (brief) shared car ride
Avatar 6:58pm northguineahills:

Bootsie makes a fair point.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:59pm Mark Hurst:

You can clicky now!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:59pm listener 126464:

You might want to spice this page up with a hit counter.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:59pm Webhamster Henry:

Time to Rickroll Mark.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:59pm Mark Hurst:

...and a BLINK tag
Avatar Swag For Life Member 6:59pm listener 126464:

Thanks Mark and J.
  7:00pm P-90:

Thanks and Happy Holidays Mark!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:00pm Carmichael:

Or Markroll Rick.
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:00pm Ken From Hyde Park:

Thanks, Mark. Take care.
Avatar 7:00pm northguineahills:

True, Dean. Most journalist are way worst in every way possible!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:00pm Bootsie:

Thank you Mark!!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:00pm Webhamster Henry:

Friend me on Friendster.
Avatar 7:00pm northguineahills:

True, Dean. Most journalist are way worst in every way possible!
Avatar Swag For Life Member 7:00pm ♪Kɛ:

Some of the online definitions are incorrect. The best one is "apologist for the violence and crimes against humanity perpetrated by 20th-century Marxist-Leninist regimes, particularly the Soviet Union under Joseph Stalin (1924 - 1953)", but as currently used it also extends to China.
  8:11pm Smokey the Bar:

Google thinks I wanna be a firefighter from all my communications with our fire department over my cruel landlord blocking exits. The fire department made him fix it. You can be assuaged fear.
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