WFMU: If You Lose Your Horse with Sam Segal: Playlist from June 3, 2020

Listener comments!
	🥁 ♥ 10:00pm WR: Hold your horses there big fellow.
	10:01pm fleep: The vertical lift off horse is far superior the original flying horses that required a runway.
	🥁 ♥ 10:03pm Gary: Whiii-iinnnyyyy!
	♥ 10:03pm Sam Segal: Welcome, Gary, Fleep, and WR!
	🥁 ♥ 10:08pm Gary: This is yes
	10:10pm fleep: Listening to thoughtful articulate people, thank you
	♥ 10:10pm Sam Segal: Thank you to Democracy Now for those interviews.
	🥁 ♥ 10:11pm chresti: Hi Sam and flapping horses in the yard!
	♥ 10:11pm Sam Segal: Howdy, Chresti!
	🥁 ♥ 10:20pm WR: echo that fleep. I've given up on listening to media and spokes people talking heads but those two Sam, words worth hearing. Well, yes, Cornel West, Keeanga Yamahtta Taylor is new to me. Where did you grab those clips?
	🥁 ♥ 10:21pm wmbogart: Thanks for playing these, Sam. A tragic, monumental loss.
	♥ 10:22pm Sam Segal: @WR: Got them from this interview. Definitely worth listening to the whole thing if you get a chance. www.youtube.com...
	♥ 10:23pm Sam Segal: Glad you could be hear to pay tribute with us, @wmbogart.
	♥ 10:29pm ParUbi: Hey guys
	♥ 10:38pm Sam Segal: ParUbi! Step right in.
	🥁 ♥ 10:39pm coelacanth∅: greetings Sam & hoarse folk
	🥁 ♥ 10:40pm doctorjazz: Hi Horsemen!
	♥ 10:40pm Sam Segal: Welcome, Coel and Doc!
	🥁 ♥ 10:41pm chresti: There was a 5.5 earthquake by Ridgecrest, a little while ago, an aftershock from last year's quake.
	🥁 ♥ 10:42pm coelacanth∅: i've got somebody's pegasususeses here in my yard but i can't retain them forever
	🥁 ♥ 10:44pm Ike: "Abolish police" is pretty baffling to me. I realize police are often useless even when not malignant. But there have been some cases where they have been effective. As effective as they should be? Hell no. But the Newark PD recovered my stolen car once. I know, pretty small potatoes. Still, who would solve crimes? A new social-worker structure or what? Doesn't any replacement organization fall to power corrupting them? Do we end up with endless amateur sleuths like in all the shitty mystery books? Curious. No offense. (Definitely in favor of Black Lives Matter though.)
	♥ 10:49pm Sam Segal: Haha, fair line of questioning, Ike. I think the idea of police abolition is that we gradually divest from police, jails, and prisons, and use that money to invest in social services, public infrastructure, and other resources that keep people safe without the involvement of the carceral state. It isn't something that can happen overnight, but I think there is an overwhelming amount of evidence that policing is not an effective strategy for reducing "crime." This interview, and the book "The End of Policing," which it references are good placed to learn more about the concept of police abolition. www.npr.org...
	♥ 10:50pm Sam Segal: Also, in case you are curious to read that book, it is available as a free e-book right now: www.versobooks.com...
	🥁 ♥ 10:55pm wmbogart: I would second that recommendation for Alex Vitale's book! Very readable and accessible case against policing. Proposals differ as to the combination of social programs that would be used to "replace" the police as an institution, but most can agree that the current conception of the police in this country needs to be abolished entirely.
	♥ 10:56pm Sam Segal: For instance, in a society that doesn't disproportionately invest its resources in police, prisons, and the military, we could provide everyone with housing, health care, education, food, and meaningful work. In that kind of society, I suspect that the incidence of car theft and other property crime would decrease significantly, thereby decreasing the need for a police force to investigate these crimes. This kind of dynamic would snowball over the course of time, leading to the eventual abolition of policing as we know it.
	10:56pm Chris Farrell: I hopped the brown Pickett fence into the yard but the horse was already gone, much like me shortly due to studying but Peace and Love to all (except That One Guy, wherever and whomever That One Guy may be lol A play on the musician That One Guy and the irony of the times we live in)
	♥ 10:58pm Sam Segal: Peace and love, Chris!
	10:58pm Chris Farrell: That chat looks lively, might scroll through later and check it out. Who I am kidding of course I’m going to do that! Lol..
	🥁 ♥ 10:59pm Ike: Thanks, that's a fascinating article, but Vitale does say, point blank, "I'm certainly not talking about any kind of scenario where tomorrow someone just flips a switch and there are no police. What I'm talking about is the systematic questioning of the specific roles that police currently undertake, and attempting to develop evidence-based alternatives so that we can dial back our reliance on them." And that is a GREAT idea and I'm all in favor of it, but it doesn't sound much like "abolishing the police" to me, and I'm too cynical to imagine that our viciously capitalist society will ever do anything that would reduce inequality enough to put a stop to, say, car theft. :( But thanks!
	♥ 10:59pm Sam Segal: Yeah, the great thing about the Vitale book is how straightforwardly its written. He is a serious social scientist, and everything he advocates for is evidence-based.
	🥁 ♥ 10:59pm coelacanth∅: people wasting time and energy is why almost nothing ever gets done and most progressive change reverts. ...just as "black lives matter" is a waste of time. the whole nature (protocol?) of law enforcement in the us is based on aggression, corruption, revenue, ulterior motives, etc. if that were fixed the bigotry would be fixed with it. ...it's not like black folks are the only ones being oppressed. EVERYONE is oppressed by cops, even people who think it's worth it. "black lives matter" is just one more thing to segregate people so they're weaker against the real enemy. ...add to that that it takes strength AWAY from blacks merely by the phrasing. it implies helplessness. abolishing the police here will not happen. ever. the only chance there is for decency is to raise the standards of human being that is allowed to be a cop.
	🥁 ♥ 11:01pm coelacanth∅: ...unless the whole structure of the power in the us changes, that is. and that's very unlikely to happen too.
	♥ 11:01pm Sam Segal: @Ike, regardless of the timeline, I think its still important to be clear about your goals. The rallying cry of "Abolish the Police" reminds organizers that they are working toward building a future without police. It helps us understand what kinds of short-term police reforms are worth pursuing and which ones are not.
	🥁 ♥ 11:02pm coelacanth∅: there's obscene money being made by people in the law enforcement/prison system.
	♥ 11:05pm Sam Segal: In terms of the feasibility, I would also just add that over the past couple of days, multiple City Council members in NYC have committed to voting for a major cut the NYPD's budget in Fiscal Year 2021, so that funding can be invested in the social services that are on the chopping block due to COVID. Before these protests started, none of those City Council members would have considered advocating for budget cuts to the NYPD. These protests are radically and rapidly expanding our political horizons.
	🥁 ♥ 11:06pm coelacanth∅: okay. something needs to be done about the feds.
	🥁 ♥ 11:07pm chresti: The same was proposed in LA.
	♥ 11:10pm Sam Segal: @Coel, I agree with some of what you are saying. I do not think Black Lives Matter is a needlessly divisive slogan. Racism is one of the fundamental ideological tools that the ruling class uses to maintain capitalist exploitation. Capital needs a large pool of excess labor capacity in order to keep wages down and prevent workers from organizing. Racism is one of the key strategies for maintaining a large pool of unemployed workers. To dismantle capitalism, we need to confront systems of racial exploitation like policing at the same time.
	🥁 ♥ 11:14pm wmbogart: I can't say I understand what you're saying, coelacantho. I don't see how it's arguable that oppression and policing are heavily informed by race and class. Certainly there are degrees of oppression that can be easily recognized. It sounds like we can agree that there is no justification for the carceral state (either morally or fiscally, based on your comment), but I think it is flippant to disregard the specific but repeated experience of people of color in this country that are put at a massive disadvantage (if not outright killed) by policing, hiring biases, redlining, etc, to say nothing of the differences in familial wealth. Understanding those systemic disadvantages and how they operate in the larger hierarchal economic structure helps in understanding the extent of the problem and ideally sparks a recognition of the urgency of the need for change, so I don't see how it "segregates people" in the slightest.
	🥁 ♥ 11:16pm coelacanth∅: i agree with all of that Sam. so i'm not sure where we disagree! ...i never said people should not be protesting; i just think it's a divisive slogan and something broader, like "no police bigotry" would help the people of different "colors" come together -and fight together. (but of course "no police bigotry" isn't very catchy)
	🥁 ♥ 11:16pm coelacanth∅: (and people would have to be schooled as to what "bigotry" means)
	♥ 11:19pm Sam Segal: I'm all for having an array of slogans! Plenty of room for various slogans in this movement. Black Lives Matter is a good one, but other, broader slogans are welcome.
	♥ 11:20pm Sam Segal: Very well said, though, @wmbogart. I am in total agreement.
	🥁 ♥ 11:23pm coelacanth∅: wmbogart nothing disregarded and nothing flippant. no justification for you saying that. there's a fair chance i've put many more years' worth of thought into this subject than you have.
	🥁 ♥ 11:25pm coelacanth∅: no reason to imply i don't understand something, just because you cannot understand me.
	♥ 11:26pm Franco Twinkie: As the world around us is in a state of torment and sorrow tonight, Chresti and I are arguing about my disregard for the kitchen sponge. Is this symptomatic of the general malaise and entropy of Americans in general, or are we just a couple of old people who spent to much time in the house?
	🥁 ♥ 11:27pm coelacanth∅: i don't like sponges, so i'm biased.
	♥ 11:28pm Franco Twinkie: I knew it!
	♥ 11:28pm Sam Segal: Sounds like a fight me and my girlfriend would have, Franco. Clearly this emblematic of a broader phenomenon.
	🥁 ♥ 11:28pm wmbogart: Likewise Sam! And @coel I don't intend to disregard what you are saying at all, and I apologize that I wrote that in the way I did. Your perspective is valuable as well of course. I'm on edge a bit with everything going on locally and in the world but I do not in any way intend to disrespect you. In any case I'm heartened that people here and elsewhere are agreeing more and more that a change is urgently necessary. Disagreements on how to go about making that change and what it should look like are a good start on the road to a better tomorrow for all.
	♥ 11:30pm Sam Segal: Hear hear, @wmbogart! Same on my part, @Coel. Definitely respect your opinion, and I am honored to have you share it in this forum.
	🥁 ♥ 11:30pm coelacanth∅: cool. Thank you wmbogart. we are on the same team of course!
	🥁 ♥ 11:34pm coelacanth∅: ...hey i know i have unpopular approaches to ideas. at the very least unpopular ways of phrasing them.
	🥁 ♥ 11:35pm wmbogart: Of course, we're on the same team, sorry again for coming in a little hot there. Thanks to everyone sharing perspectives, and to Sam for playing Elysia Crampton (my favorite album this year, I think!). I'll bow out and return to my typical quiet listening but I appreciate everyone here (and WFMU!)
	🥁 ♥ 11:36pm WR: Playlist commentor Dean shared this link recently: nonsite.org... I initially wondered why the push back against blacklivesmatter but towards the end began to recall others decades ago who said that need to move beyond Black power movement to understanding it is a class war, a capitalist class / caste system that is dominant and while I am not advocate of bureaucratic centralised socialism I care even less for the unbridled capitalism we have in the USA. The current police forces role is as much to enforce that dominating clique as it is to provide for the public safety. Their role and make up would evolve if we have an actual informed democracy.
	🥁 ♥ 11:38pm WR: I always defer to my partner regarding the kitchen sponge. Always.
	♥ 11:39pm Franco Twinkie: WR, can we go off topic for a moment?
	🥁 ♥ 11:39pm WR: And i see at 11:10 Sam you focus on similar thoughts to mine.
	🥁 ♥ 11:41pm coelacanth∅: i did bookmark that one but haven't gotten to it. i've bookmarked so many links from these comment boards but trying to get some other things done here and only have read <1/2 of it.
	🥁 ♥ 11:41pm WR: Franco, sure. Seems to me wherever I go I turn and you are there.
	🥁 ♥ 11:42pm coelacanth∅: wmbogart if your leaving have a good night and stay strong!
	🥁 ♥ 11:43pm coelacanth∅: Franco is sensitive when we're on the topic of sponges.
	🥁 ♥ 11:45pm WR: Just trying to catch up as I prepare to see if my taking recycle and garbage to the corner, after curfew and without a mask on will result in my being taken fown by the man.
	♥ 11:45pm Franco Twinkie: True that,WR. My questions are regarding something you said last night: Where did you see the Thirteenth Floor Elevators, and what was your perception of them at the time?
	🥁 ♥ 11:47pm WR: I'm thinking I am safe since I can pull both the white privilege and senior citizen card. Also I always say yahsuh when addressed by an officer of the law.
	♥ 11:48pm Sam Segal: Thanks, WR. I will definitely have to check out that Adolph Reed article. His writing is always provocative (in a good way). I certainly agree that the police state exists to enforce the dominance of the ruling class, which leads to the oppression of all proletarians regardless of race. Still, it does seem empirically clear to me that police violence disproportionately targets people of color. Discovering why this disproportionality exists and what purpose it serves is important, I think. But I should read that Reed!
	♥ 11:49pm Webhamster Henry: Hi Sam and horse whisperers. My sign at the big march in Kingston today said "Who benefits from institutional Racism? Follow the money." Racism is a tool of oppression - just one of many.
	♥ 11:50pm Sam Segal: Very well put, Webhamster Henry! Probably a much more succinct way of saying what I've been trying to say all night.
	🥁 ♥ 11:50pm coelacanth∅: i wonder if sometimes it's because they know they will get away with it much of the time -and the real bigotry is at the judicial level.
	🥁 ♥ 11:51pm WR: Saw them in Houston in 1966 in a grocery store front converted into an all ages music venue, La Maison. I was 15 years old. I loved them. I could not find their records in store but had several songs seared to memory. I knew I could never sing like Roky but tried for many years to play jug like Tommy Hall.
	♥ 11:52pm Franco Twinkie: Thank you.
	🥁 ♥ 11:55pm WR: I have since listened to so many recordings that it is hard to recapture exactly what I heard that night, but to be corny, seeing them was certainly elevating for me.
	♥ 11:56pm Franco Twinkie: Okay, we can continue this topic at a less emotional time.
	♥ 11:56pm Granny Spicy Tuna (e/em): hello, Sam and WFMU folx. I like these sounds…
	♥ 11:57pm Franco Twinkie: Granny! Thing cool down on the hill?
	♥ 11:58pm Sam Segal: Granny! Nice to have you aboard briefly.
	🥁 ♥ 11:59pm WR: When I saw the Elevators I had seen The Beatles (Oct. 65) and the Rolling Stones (I think early Oct. 65). Both those in big arena and enjoyable but Elevators in a club with a few hundred people. Wow.
	♥ 11:59pm Granny Spicy Tuna (e/em): Franco: a bit—not enough for my tastes, though!
	♥ 12:00am Granny Spicy Tuna (e/em): Sam: better late than never. Finally wrenched myself away from the Zooms! OY!
	🥁 ♥ 12:00am coelacanth∅: i wanted to hear about that 'elevators experience as well. Thanks. ...again, envious!
	♥ 12:01am Franco Twinkie: Sorry to throw spitballs in class, Sam. But this is the only topic now,right? Nothing was resolved I'm sorry to say. Thanks for hosting the forum.
	🥁 ♥ 12:02am coelacanth∅: Thanks Sam! please be careful everyone and stay strong.
	🥁 ♥ 12:02am WR: Oh, damn, Sam, we're there already. Will let y'all know later if any mishap taking refuse to the curb. Thank you Sam, laters all.
	♥ 12:02am Sam Segal: Never apologize, Franco!
	♥ 12:02am Granny Spicy Tuna (e/em): Thank you, everyone, see you around the bend…
	🥁 ♥ 12:04am chresti: Thanks Sam! Issue with scrubber sponge is he puts it scrubber side down, then it dries and gets stuck to the surface.
	12:08pm JakeGould: Hey Sam! Didn’t listen last night, but saw this playlist and want to thank you for clearly explaining so much here. Kudos to you and yours!

If You Lose Your Horse with Sam Segal: Playlist from June 3, 2020

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A true disrupter within the freeform internet-radio market, If You Lose Your Horse creates a space for smart consumers to experience a game-changing digital audio brand.

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June 3, 2020: Horses Flap Their Enormous Wings and Lift Off From the Backyard

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Artist	Track	Album	Label	Comments	Approx. start time
DJ Screw	Come and Take a Ride (Instrumental)			Featuring the voices of Cornel West and Keeanga Yamahtta Taylor. Black Lives Matter. RIP George Floyd.
DJ Screw	Freestyle (ft. Daryl & Big Floyd)	Diary of the Originator - Chapter 319: Floyd & Screw '98	Screwed Up Records & Tapes	RIP George Floyd, aka "Big Floyd," featured on this track and the rest of the tracks in this set.	0:09:31 (Pop-up)
DJ Screw	Sittin' on Top of the World (ft. Chris Ward, AD, and Big Floyd)	Diary of the Originator - Chapter 95: Sittin On Top The World	Screwed Up Records & Tapes		0:14:44 (Pop-up)
Presidential Playas	Chopped "Chopped" by "Presidential Playas"	Block Party The Album (Chopped Up Skrewed Version)	Presidential		0:21:02 (Pop-up)
DJ Screw	Freestyle "Freestyle" by "DJ Screw"	Diary of the Originator - Chapter 7: Ballin in the Mall	Screwed Up Records & Tapes		0:24:59 (Pop-up)

Big Youth	Dread Inna Babylon "Dread Inna Babylon" by "Big Youth"	The Chanting Dread Inna Fine Style	Heartbeat		0:35:24 (Pop-up)
Dhaima	Don't Feel No Way "Don't Feel No Way" by "Dhaima"	Love Lives Forever	Numero		0:37:09 (Pop-up)
Charles Mingus	Remember Rockefeller at Attica	Changes One	Atlantic		0:42:59 (Pop-up)
Greg Fox	From the Cessation of What	Contact	RVNG Intl.		0:50:11 (Pop-up)
Miles Davis	Moja (Part II) "Moja (Part II)" by "Miles Davis"	Dark Magus	CBS-Sony		0:57:09 (Pop-up)

Claire Rousay	swipe - dice in santa fe - taxi ride	A Heavenly Touch	Already Dead		1:17:52 (Pop-up)
Elysia Crampton	Homeless (Q'ara) "Homeless (Q'ara)" by "Elysia Crampton"	Orcorara 2010	PAN		1:21:45 (Pop-up)
Eberhard Weber	No Motion Picture "No Motion Picture" by "Eberhard Weber"	The Colours of Chloe	ECM		1:30:39 (Pop-up)
Kenny Wheeler	Past Present "Past Present" by "Kenny Wheeler"	Angel Song	ECM		1:48:23 (Pop-up)
Okkyung Lee	another old story (옛날이야기)	Yeo-Neun	Shelter Press		1:54:47 (Pop-up)

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Listener comments!
	🥁 ♥ 10:00pm WR: Hold your horses there big fellow.
	10:01pm fleep: The vertical lift off horse is far superior the original flying horses that required a runway.
	🥁 ♥ 10:03pm Gary: Whiii-iinnnyyyy!
	♥ 10:03pm Sam Segal: Welcome, Gary, Fleep, and WR!
	🥁 ♥ 10:08pm Gary: This is yes
	10:10pm fleep: Listening to thoughtful articulate people, thank you
	♥ 10:10pm Sam Segal: Thank you to Democracy Now for those interviews.
	🥁 ♥ 10:11pm chresti: Hi Sam and flapping horses in the yard!
	♥ 10:11pm Sam Segal: Howdy, Chresti!
	🥁 ♥ 10:20pm WR: echo that fleep. I've given up on listening to media and spokes people talking heads but those two Sam, words worth hearing. Well, yes, Cornel West, Keeanga Yamahtta Taylor is new to me. Where did you grab those clips?
	🥁 ♥ 10:21pm wmbogart: Thanks for playing these, Sam. A tragic, monumental loss.
	♥ 10:22pm Sam Segal: @WR: Got them from this interview. Definitely worth listening to the whole thing if you get a chance. www.youtube.com...
	♥ 10:23pm Sam Segal: Glad you could be hear to pay tribute with us, @wmbogart.
	♥ 10:29pm ParUbi: Hey guys
	♥ 10:38pm Sam Segal: ParUbi! Step right in.
	🥁 ♥ 10:39pm coelacanth∅: greetings Sam & hoarse folk
	🥁 ♥ 10:40pm doctorjazz: Hi Horsemen!
	♥ 10:40pm Sam Segal: Welcome, Coel and Doc!
	🥁 ♥ 10:41pm chresti: There was a 5.5 earthquake by Ridgecrest, a little while ago, an aftershock from last year's quake.
	🥁 ♥ 10:42pm coelacanth∅: i've got somebody's pegasususeses here in my yard but i can't retain them forever
	🥁 ♥ 10:44pm Ike: "Abolish police" is pretty baffling to me. I realize police are often useless even when not malignant. But there have been some cases where they have been effective. As effective as they should be? Hell no. But the Newark PD recovered my stolen car once. I know, pretty small potatoes. Still, who would solve crimes? A new social-worker structure or what? Doesn't any replacement organization fall to power corrupting them? Do we end up with endless amateur sleuths like in all the shitty mystery books? Curious. No offense. (Definitely in favor of Black Lives Matter though.)
	♥ 10:49pm Sam Segal: Haha, fair line of questioning, Ike. I think the idea of police abolition is that we gradually divest from police, jails, and prisons, and use that money to invest in social services, public infrastructure, and other resources that keep people safe without the involvement of the carceral state. It isn't something that can happen overnight, but I think there is an overwhelming amount of evidence that policing is not an effective strategy for reducing "crime." This interview, and the book "The End of Policing," which it references are good placed to learn more about the concept of police abolition. www.npr.org...
	♥ 10:50pm Sam Segal: Also, in case you are curious to read that book, it is available as a free e-book right now: www.versobooks.com...
	🥁 ♥ 10:55pm wmbogart: I would second that recommendation for Alex Vitale's book! Very readable and accessible case against policing. Proposals differ as to the combination of social programs that would be used to "replace" the police as an institution, but most can agree that the current conception of the police in this country needs to be abolished entirely.
	♥ 10:56pm Sam Segal: For instance, in a society that doesn't disproportionately invest its resources in police, prisons, and the military, we could provide everyone with housing, health care, education, food, and meaningful work. In that kind of society, I suspect that the incidence of car theft and other property crime would decrease significantly, thereby decreasing the need for a police force to investigate these crimes. This kind of dynamic would snowball over the course of time, leading to the eventual abolition of policing as we know it.
	10:56pm Chris Farrell: I hopped the brown Pickett fence into the yard but the horse was already gone, much like me shortly due to studying but Peace and Love to all (except That One Guy, wherever and whomever That One Guy may be lol A play on the musician That One Guy and the irony of the times we live in)
	♥ 10:58pm Sam Segal: Peace and love, Chris!
	10:58pm Chris Farrell: That chat looks lively, might scroll through later and check it out. Who I am kidding of course I’m going to do that! Lol..
	🥁 ♥ 10:59pm Ike: Thanks, that's a fascinating article, but Vitale does say, point blank, "I'm certainly not talking about any kind of scenario where tomorrow someone just flips a switch and there are no police. What I'm talking about is the systematic questioning of the specific roles that police currently undertake, and attempting to develop evidence-based alternatives so that we can dial back our reliance on them." And that is a GREAT idea and I'm all in favor of it, but it doesn't sound much like "abolishing the police" to me, and I'm too cynical to imagine that our viciously capitalist society will ever do anything that would reduce inequality enough to put a stop to, say, car theft. :( But thanks!
	♥ 10:59pm Sam Segal: Yeah, the great thing about the Vitale book is how straightforwardly its written. He is a serious social scientist, and everything he advocates for is evidence-based.
	🥁 ♥ 10:59pm coelacanth∅: people wasting time and energy is why almost nothing ever gets done and most progressive change reverts. ...just as "black lives matter" is a waste of time. the whole nature (protocol?) of law enforcement in the us is based on aggression, corruption, revenue, ulterior motives, etc. if that were fixed the bigotry would be fixed with it. ...it's not like black folks are the only ones being oppressed. EVERYONE is oppressed by cops, even people who think it's worth it. "black lives matter" is just one more thing to segregate people so they're weaker against the real enemy. ...add to that that it takes strength AWAY from blacks merely by the phrasing. it implies helplessness. abolishing the police here will not happen. ever. the only chance there is for decency is to raise the standards of human being that is allowed to be a cop.
	🥁 ♥ 11:01pm coelacanth∅: ...unless the whole structure of the power in the us changes, that is. and that's very unlikely to happen too.
	♥ 11:01pm Sam Segal: @Ike, regardless of the timeline, I think its still important to be clear about your goals. The rallying cry of "Abolish the Police" reminds organizers that they are working toward building a future without police. It helps us understand what kinds of short-term police reforms are worth pursuing and which ones are not.
	🥁 ♥ 11:02pm coelacanth∅: there's obscene money being made by people in the law enforcement/prison system.
	♥ 11:05pm Sam Segal: In terms of the feasibility, I would also just add that over the past couple of days, multiple City Council members in NYC have committed to voting for a major cut the NYPD's budget in Fiscal Year 2021, so that funding can be invested in the social services that are on the chopping block due to COVID. Before these protests started, none of those City Council members would have considered advocating for budget cuts to the NYPD. These protests are radically and rapidly expanding our political horizons.
	🥁 ♥ 11:06pm coelacanth∅: okay. something needs to be done about the feds.
	🥁 ♥ 11:07pm chresti: The same was proposed in LA.
	♥ 11:10pm Sam Segal: @Coel, I agree with some of what you are saying. I do not think Black Lives Matter is a needlessly divisive slogan. Racism is one of the fundamental ideological tools that the ruling class uses to maintain capitalist exploitation. Capital needs a large pool of excess labor capacity in order to keep wages down and prevent workers from organizing. Racism is one of the key strategies for maintaining a large pool of unemployed workers. To dismantle capitalism, we need to confront systems of racial exploitation like policing at the same time.
	🥁 ♥ 11:14pm wmbogart: I can't say I understand what you're saying, coelacantho. I don't see how it's arguable that oppression and policing are heavily informed by race and class. Certainly there are degrees of oppression that can be easily recognized. It sounds like we can agree that there is no justification for the carceral state (either morally or fiscally, based on your comment), but I think it is flippant to disregard the specific but repeated experience of people of color in this country that are put at a massive disadvantage (if not outright killed) by policing, hiring biases, redlining, etc, to say nothing of the differences in familial wealth. Understanding those systemic disadvantages and how they operate in the larger hierarchal economic structure helps in understanding the extent of the problem and ideally sparks a recognition of the urgency of the need for change, so I don't see how it "segregates people" in the slightest.
	🥁 ♥ 11:16pm coelacanth∅: i agree with all of that Sam. so i'm not sure where we disagree! ...i never said people should not be protesting; i just think it's a divisive slogan and something broader, like "no police bigotry" would help the people of different "colors" come together -and fight together. (but of course "no police bigotry" isn't very catchy)
	🥁 ♥ 11:16pm coelacanth∅: (and people would have to be schooled as to what "bigotry" means)
	♥ 11:19pm Sam Segal: I'm all for having an array of slogans! Plenty of room for various slogans in this movement. Black Lives Matter is a good one, but other, broader slogans are welcome.
	♥ 11:20pm Sam Segal: Very well said, though, @wmbogart. I am in total agreement.
	🥁 ♥ 11:23pm coelacanth∅: wmbogart nothing disregarded and nothing flippant. no justification for you saying that. there's a fair chance i've put many more years' worth of thought into this subject than you have.
	🥁 ♥ 11:25pm coelacanth∅: no reason to imply i don't understand something, just because you cannot understand me.
	♥ 11:26pm Franco Twinkie: As the world around us is in a state of torment and sorrow tonight, Chresti and I are arguing about my disregard for the kitchen sponge. Is this symptomatic of the general malaise and entropy of Americans in general, or are we just a couple of old people who spent to much time in the house?
	🥁 ♥ 11:27pm coelacanth∅: i don't like sponges, so i'm biased.
	♥ 11:28pm Franco Twinkie: I knew it!
	♥ 11:28pm Sam Segal: Sounds like a fight me and my girlfriend would have, Franco. Clearly this emblematic of a broader phenomenon.
	🥁 ♥ 11:28pm wmbogart: Likewise Sam! And @coel I don't intend to disregard what you are saying at all, and I apologize that I wrote that in the way I did. Your perspective is valuable as well of course. I'm on edge a bit with everything going on locally and in the world but I do not in any way intend to disrespect you. In any case I'm heartened that people here and elsewhere are agreeing more and more that a change is urgently necessary. Disagreements on how to go about making that change and what it should look like are a good start on the road to a better tomorrow for all.
	♥ 11:30pm Sam Segal: Hear hear, @wmbogart! Same on my part, @Coel. Definitely respect your opinion, and I am honored to have you share it in this forum.
	🥁 ♥ 11:30pm coelacanth∅: cool. Thank you wmbogart. we are on the same team of course!
	🥁 ♥ 11:34pm coelacanth∅: ...hey i know i have unpopular approaches to ideas. at the very least unpopular ways of phrasing them.
	🥁 ♥ 11:35pm wmbogart: Of course, we're on the same team, sorry again for coming in a little hot there. Thanks to everyone sharing perspectives, and to Sam for playing Elysia Crampton (my favorite album this year, I think!). I'll bow out and return to my typical quiet listening but I appreciate everyone here (and WFMU!)
	🥁 ♥ 11:36pm WR: Playlist commentor Dean shared this link recently: nonsite.org... I initially wondered why the push back against blacklivesmatter but towards the end began to recall others decades ago who said that need to move beyond Black power movement to understanding it is a class war, a capitalist class / caste system that is dominant and while I am not advocate of bureaucratic centralised socialism I care even less for the unbridled capitalism we have in the USA. The current police forces role is as much to enforce that dominating clique as it is to provide for the public safety. Their role and make up would evolve if we have an actual informed democracy.
	🥁 ♥ 11:38pm WR: I always defer to my partner regarding the kitchen sponge. Always.
	♥ 11:39pm Franco Twinkie: WR, can we go off topic for a moment?
	🥁 ♥ 11:39pm WR: And i see at 11:10 Sam you focus on similar thoughts to mine.
	🥁 ♥ 11:41pm coelacanth∅: i did bookmark that one but haven't gotten to it. i've bookmarked so many links from these comment boards but trying to get some other things done here and only have read <1/2 of it.
	🥁 ♥ 11:41pm WR: Franco, sure. Seems to me wherever I go I turn and you are there.
	🥁 ♥ 11:42pm coelacanth∅: wmbogart if your leaving have a good night and stay strong!
	🥁 ♥ 11:43pm coelacanth∅: Franco is sensitive when we're on the topic of sponges.
	🥁 ♥ 11:45pm WR: Just trying to catch up as I prepare to see if my taking recycle and garbage to the corner, after curfew and without a mask on will result in my being taken fown by the man.
	♥ 11:45pm Franco Twinkie: True that,WR. My questions are regarding something you said last night: Where did you see the Thirteenth Floor Elevators, and what was your perception of them at the time?
	🥁 ♥ 11:47pm WR: I'm thinking I am safe since I can pull both the white privilege and senior citizen card. Also I always say yahsuh when addressed by an officer of the law.
	♥ 11:48pm Sam Segal: Thanks, WR. I will definitely have to check out that Adolph Reed article. His writing is always provocative (in a good way). I certainly agree that the police state exists to enforce the dominance of the ruling class, which leads to the oppression of all proletarians regardless of race. Still, it does seem empirically clear to me that police violence disproportionately targets people of color. Discovering why this disproportionality exists and what purpose it serves is important, I think. But I should read that Reed!
	♥ 11:49pm Webhamster Henry: Hi Sam and horse whisperers. My sign at the big march in Kingston today said "Who benefits from institutional Racism? Follow the money." Racism is a tool of oppression - just one of many.
	♥ 11:50pm Sam Segal: Very well put, Webhamster Henry! Probably a much more succinct way of saying what I've been trying to say all night.
	🥁 ♥ 11:50pm coelacanth∅: i wonder if sometimes it's because they know they will get away with it much of the time -and the real bigotry is at the judicial level.
	🥁 ♥ 11:51pm WR: Saw them in Houston in 1966 in a grocery store front converted into an all ages music venue, La Maison. I was 15 years old. I loved them. I could not find their records in store but had several songs seared to memory. I knew I could never sing like Roky but tried for many years to play jug like Tommy Hall.
	♥ 11:52pm Franco Twinkie: Thank you.
	🥁 ♥ 11:55pm WR: I have since listened to so many recordings that it is hard to recapture exactly what I heard that night, but to be corny, seeing them was certainly elevating for me.
	♥ 11:56pm Franco Twinkie: Okay, we can continue this topic at a less emotional time.
	♥ 11:56pm Granny Spicy Tuna (e/em): hello, Sam and WFMU folx. I like these sounds…
	♥ 11:57pm Franco Twinkie: Granny! Thing cool down on the hill?
	♥ 11:58pm Sam Segal: Granny! Nice to have you aboard briefly.
	🥁 ♥ 11:59pm WR: When I saw the Elevators I had seen The Beatles (Oct. 65) and the Rolling Stones (I think early Oct. 65). Both those in big arena and enjoyable but Elevators in a club with a few hundred people. Wow.
	♥ 11:59pm Granny Spicy Tuna (e/em): Franco: a bit—not enough for my tastes, though!
	♥ 12:00am Granny Spicy Tuna (e/em): Sam: better late than never. Finally wrenched myself away from the Zooms! OY!
	🥁 ♥ 12:00am coelacanth∅: i wanted to hear about that 'elevators experience as well. Thanks. ...again, envious!
	♥ 12:01am Franco Twinkie: Sorry to throw spitballs in class, Sam. But this is the only topic now,right? Nothing was resolved I'm sorry to say. Thanks for hosting the forum.
	🥁 ♥ 12:02am coelacanth∅: Thanks Sam! please be careful everyone and stay strong.
	🥁 ♥ 12:02am WR: Oh, damn, Sam, we're there already. Will let y'all know later if any mishap taking refuse to the curb. Thank you Sam, laters all.
	♥ 12:02am Sam Segal: Never apologize, Franco!
	♥ 12:02am Granny Spicy Tuna (e/em): Thank you, everyone, see you around the bend…
	🥁 ♥ 12:04am chresti: Thanks Sam! Issue with scrubber sponge is he puts it scrubber side down, then it dries and gets stuck to the surface.
	12:08pm JakeGould: Hey Sam! Didn’t listen last night, but saw this playlist and want to thank you for clearly explaining so much here. Kudos to you and yours!

If You Lose Your Horse with Sam Segal: Playlist from June 3, 2020

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